What did Thorin say to Thranduil when he declined the Elven King's offer?

  • I'm guessing it's the sort of thing you don't put into subtitles. The offer I am referring to is the one when Thranduil requests the moon stones from Erebor, in the King's throne room.

    Here is the scene:

    Thranduil: Some may imagine that a Noble quest is at hand. A Quest to reclaim a homeland and slay a dragon. I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive. Attempted burglary, or something of that ilk.
    [he leans down to look at Thorin closely]
    Thranduil: You have found a way in. You seek that which would bestow upon you the right to rule. A King's jewel. The Arkenstone. It is precious to you beyond measure, I understand that. There are gems in the mountain that I too desire. White gems of pure starlight. I offer you my help.
    [Thorin smiles]
    Thorin: I am listening.
    Thranduil: I will let you go, if you but return what is mine.
    Thorin: A favor for a favor.
    Thranduil: You have my word. One King to another.
    Thorin: I would not trust, Thranduil, the great King, to only his word. Till the end of all days be upon us!
    [Thranduil looks visibly shocked at Thorin's words]
    Thorin: You, lack all honor! I have seen how you treat your friends! We came to you once, starving, homeless; seeking your help. But you turned your back! You, turned away from the suffering of my people and the inferno that destroyed us!
    [in his own language]
    Thorin: May you die in dragon fire!
    Thranduil: Do not talk to me of dragon fire! I know it's wrath and ruin. I have faced the great serpents of the North.
    [suddenly one side of Thranduil's face becomes distorted, showing signs of being once burnt, then as he steps back his face returns to it's normal state]
    Thranduil: I warned your grandfather of what his greed would summon, but he would not listen.
    [Thranduil walks up the steps to his throne]
    Thranduil: You are just like him.
    [he motions for his guards to grab hold of Thorin who struggles as they hold him and take him away]
    Thranduil: Stay here if you will, and rot. A hundred years is a mere blink in a life of an Elf. I'm patient. I can wait.

    And

    Balin: Did he offer you a deal?
    Thorin: He did. I told him he could go ishkh khakfe andu null. Him and all his kin!
    Balin: Well, that's that then. The deal was our only hope.

    Both passages from here.

    Was this phrase ([in his own language] above) and his one to Balin (ishkh khakfe andu null) in the book. What did they say?

    The interaction between Thranduil and Thorin is _signficantly_ different between the movie and the book. I wouldn't look to the book for answers here. (And no, there was no cussin' in the original.)

    @Wrathchild, the trolls did actually do some mild cussing

    What offer? Can you state the question more clearly?

    I'm not sure exactly... something about Thranduil's mom and a dragon's tail.

    Was it "no thank you, kind sir"?

    @Kevin Yes, I'm afraid they actually did talk like that.

  • Correct answer

    7 years ago

    This phrase doesn't occur in the book.

    The Khuzdul (Dwarvish) used in the movies was largely constructed by the linguist David Salo, and his blog can be viewed at the following link: http://midgardsmal.com/ - I see that he doesn't yet have sufficient information on it to fully translate this particular phrase, although andu may be related to either undu “beneath, under” or v. und- “procreate”. The implied rudeness suggests the latter, but there's no evidence either way.

    Actual Khuzdul in the books was very limited by comparison - we have some names of geographical features around Moria, the inscription on Balin's tomb ("Balin Fundinul Uzbad Khazaddumu"), Gimli's war-cry at Helm's Deep ("Baruk Khazâd! Khazâd ai-mênu!"), a scattering of other words and names, and that's all. Certainly not enough to construct arbitrary phrases with.

    Khuzdul itself hadn't yet been invented at the time the Hobbit was written - the Lhammas of the 1930s contains some fleeting mentions of Dwarvish languages, such as the following extract (there is also a mere handful of names in contemporaneous work):

    Of the language of the Dwarves little is known to us, save that its origin is as dark as is the origin of the Dwarvish race itself; and their tongues are not akin to other tongues, but wholly alien, and they are harsh and intricate, and few have essayed to learn them.

    Therefore any Khuzdul you hear in the Hobbit movies is either sourced from later (and very much more limited) work, or from the invention of David Salo, to who's blog I refer you for further information.

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Content dated before 6/26/2020 9:53 AM