Hydraulic Vs. Mechanical disc brakes
What is the difference between hydraulic and mechanical disc brakes? Are hydraulics more reliable? Or more powerful? I'm curious since, hydraulics seem to get more attention and seem to be on professional bikes.
I installed a pair of Shimano entry level hydraulic brakes in my MTB. Both calipers, front and rear, failed before 8 months of moderate use (like less than 1,000 kms). Pistons started to leak oil, pads got contaminated, braking was hard and the squeak deafening. I return to mechanical disc brakes; not so nice, but dependable and maintainable. How good is a brake if you can't trust it?
Your individual experience with one set of brakes should not be generalized into saying you can't trust hydraulic systems.
@Det Shimano are a reputable company. Even their cheap components should be of acceptable quality and last longer than 1000km. Especially for safety-critical systems such as brakes: from a purely mercantile point of view, they can't afford the lawsuits and loss of reputation from thousands of dead cyclists whose brakes failed.
@DavidRicherby well I get that, but "thousands" is a bit of stretch when there aren't that many cyclist deaths annually in the US as a whole.
@Det Exactly. So most entry level Shimano brake components must be just fine. It must be that user5369 got a faulty brake, not that there's some systematic problem with Shimano's bottom of the range components. But your initial comment seems to be saying, "Well, he bought entry-level components -- of course they broke."
Hydraulics are used on higher end systems, cables are often a sign of a cheap brake set, so your observations are correct regarding "professional" bikes. However there are very good cable disc brakes (e.g. Avid BB7's) that are the exception that proves the rule. .
Cables have the disadvantage of friction that hydraulics virtually eliminate. It is significantly easier to modulate hydraulic brakes, you get more force delivered to the pads, hence more stopping power for the same input, and faster/more reliable and predictable pad retraction when releasing the brakes. As the Hydraulic system is sealed, grit and grime cannot get in to jam up the moving bits, making them virtually maintenance free (replace worn pads is about all need doing) Hydraulic systems are also easier to set up and adjust (with the right tools - next to impossible without them). Cables have to the exact length, and need "tweaking" as they stretch from new.
That said - a good quality and well maintained cable system will out perform a poor quality, cheap hydraulic brake set, so you cannot state "Its hydraulic therefore it's better".
Disadvantages of hydraulics occur when you get a leak such as hole in a hose or blown seal. They are less "field serviceable" than cables, essentially the brake is rendered useless and unrepairable (in the field) by a minor fault - which fortunately happens very rarely, and usually caused by poor transport rather than while out riding.
Another reported problem with hydraulics is boiling of fluid. This is more of a problem on road bikes where mountain descents of 100's of vertical meters in a very short time are more common. With overheated fluid initially the pressure in the system stops the fluid boiling. When the brake is released (even for a moment), the pressure comes off and fluid boils, and the brakes no longer work - at all - the lever just goes all the way in. Another thing that can happen is the rider stops with no problems, but the heat in the calliper (no longer being cooled by airflow) migrates to the fluid over the next few minutes, so when the rider rides off there are no brakes. (This is different to disc fade where the pads and disc overheat and brakes loss effectiveness slowly - both types suffer this equally.)
Watch out in the future for Hydraulic shifters.... Available now if you have the big $$$$, lighter weight than XT and XX level components, almost certainly more reliable and easier to setup.... (Update 2015- Electric shifters mean these will not become main stream.)
I've never even heard of hydraulic shifters! Are they currently available? Grip or thumb shifters?
Checkout ... http://www.acros.de/PRODUCTS/SHIFTING-SYSTEM/COMPLETE/A-GE-derailleur-system-red::1658.html .. You only need $EUR1600 .....
@Kibbee : Sorry for not warning you. I think I am still a "deer in headlights" over the price....
Re. "faster/more reliable and predictable pad retraction when releasing the brakes": Means for pad retraction (like a spring), are missing in older generations of hydraulic disc brakes (like Magura Julie)
Grit and grim? I think you meant grime :) (I couldn't edit it myself because there apparently has to be at least 6 characters changed). Also, one potential disadvantage of hydros is that it's in theory possible to boil your brake fluid and render your brakes ineffective until they cool off. Unless you're into extreme mountain biking this is pretty unlikely though.
Boil your fluid? Wow! Xtreme mtb'ing must involve lots of braking. (Though I live in good mtb country, and the NWCup is held at the Dry Hill Downhills, not to far a drive, I don't get out much.)
Also, see a very good explanation of the pros/cons of mech vs. hydraulic: http://bicycles.stackexchange.com/a/12961/1502
Bad braking technique can also overheat brakes, even to the point of boiling fluid. Specifically, being too scared of taking speed and thus pressing the brake cotinously. To avoid that, ( I ) use the brakes intermitently: Braking hard before corners and releasing on the curve exit and straights...
From what I've read (I have no direct experience with this), hydraulic brakes now are designed so that lever pull remains constant regardless of pad wear. So that would be another pro to hydraulics.
What's the point of hydraulic shifters when we have electronic shifting like Di2?
Hydraulic was released about the same time as Di2 came out in Durace only, so at a price point it made sense, as it did for falt bars - MTB and tourers. I would not be surprised to find patant protections motivated some decisions. Rohloff do a Hydralic shifter for tourers, the Di2 Battery live is likely too short for that market. Aside for all that, in business sometime you have to do stuff to differentiate yourself from the big multi nations juggernauts.....
In addition to @mattnz's response; most cable disk brake systems work by operating one pad only - and squeezing the rotor onto a stationary pad. This means that as the pad wears down, you typically have to wind in the moving pad (usually the outside one) to keep the right bite point.
Hydraulic systems usually have opposing pads that self adjust for central alignment and also as the pads wear out.
(When I manufactured disk brake parts, I used to use cable disk brakes a lot on test rigs because they are so adjustable. However, out on the trail, a good set of hydraulic brakes are much better performing all round)
Cable discs rule if you are riding a lot of third world. I am a million miles away from a shop, access to the oil, etc. A hydraulic failure would be disaster, whereas the worst thing that will happen with a cable disc is a lose bolt/need for readjustment. As smooth as hydraulics are, the fix of a failure when in the middle of nowhere (whether third world or just on a long bike ride locally) is too severe. (Who brings a bleed kit on a ride?)
Here are a couple of downsides of both types, that I have witnessed.
Hydraulic. Leaking oil tends to get into the pads and rotor, rendering the first useless and the second in need of professional cleaning.
Mechanical. Cable failure is very perilous. Essentially one moment you have full stopping power, the next moment the brake is disengaged fully. Additionally, this tends to happen when you squeeze the brake lever hard. When does one squeeze the brake lever hard? Correct - when you need to stop NOW and HARD.
Maintenance. Mechanical require the annoying static pad adjustment every month or two. Hydraulic require the somewhat difficult bleeding every year or two.
The first incident I only observed. The second has happened to me multiple times with possibly misconfigured Shimano BR-M416
@VladimirNul There are several differences. 1. My answer was written several years ago - nowadays hydraulics are much more proliferated and for good reason. 2. Cyclocross bikes tend to use higher end components, compared to a cheep MTB. That being said, if you can afford it - get hydraulics.
I will give you this:
- Check all big bike brands. All the MTB medium-to-top-end models run hydraulic disc brakes, you will not see one cable-actuated. Even low end bikes are hard to find with cable discs.
- Check all the bike competitions MTB related - from downhill to enduro to XC. Everybody with no exception runs hydraulic brakes - you will not see a cable actuated.
- Check all big brands that produce road bikes with discs, and check their medium-to-top-end models. All the bikes have hydraulic disc brakes.
- Give me an example of a car or a motorcycle with cable-actuated discs. The exact same principle applies here: the relation force-in-the-lever to braking-power is unmatched on a hydraulic system.
As is true with everything, there might one or two exceptions on top-end models (usually fashion top-end, not performance top-end, i.e., the bike brands that you see on podiums ALL run hydraulic disc brakes) where there will be cable-actuated disc brakes, but what more convincing can I do when I tell you that everybody concerned with performance runs hydraulics?
It is also true hydraulic disc brakes have their specific problems - such as the fluid boiling, but these are solved in most modern iterations of hydraulics, road or mountain. Modern hydraulic disc brakes are reliable, easy to modulate and extremely powerful. Even the cheapest models, for example.
Of course you will hear all sorts of people saying how their disc brakes gave them problems, but this is true for everything. Suspensions, wheels, frames (cars, the latest Ferrari 458 and Porsche GT3 both had a problem where they catch fire, and they are extremely high-end products. Sometimes these things just happen and a bad series leaves the fabric). Cannodale, a really good brand, has a recall because a fork could potentially break, which is extremely dangerous. Is cannondale a bad brand? No, this just happens sometimes.
There are disadvantages of course, mainly that maintenance is potentially more costly as you will need to bleed them every once (a year? I do it every two, never had problems) in a while (my shop charges $60), but hydraulics are totally worth it: they are more powerful and easier to modulate. For example, you can brake with one finger - they are that easy to modulate and that powerful, while you keep most of your hand holding the handlebar, having a better overall control. Do this with mechanics..
But despite this big discussion, the best think you can do is go to a shop and try both: I am sure you will be convinced.
„Check all the bike competitions MTB related - from downhill to enduro to XC to cyclocross. Everybody with no exception runs hydraulic brakes - you will not see a cable actuated.” Cyclocross is the exception since there have been no hydraulic STIs until recently. And if I recall correctly they are still very expensive and hard to get.
Cable actuated are much more easy to service in the field. For some applications (e.g., touring, commuting) this makes up for any difference in performance (modulation & power). Running compression-less cable housings also closes much of performance gap. Not everyone needs top tier performance. In horrible conditions (ice, salt, etc) I found cable actuated (with full length housing) to be more reliable.
I won't argue if it shortens the gap or not: the gap is still there, is huge, and performance vehicles use hydraulics. Why is servicing in the field so important if you're not crossing Africa? And would you then also argue against frames with suspension, forks, internal geared hubs, non-standard wheels like mavics or crankbrothers? Because they are also harder to service in the field. Maybe there are horrible conditions when you are right (hey, there are always exceptions), but 99% of the time hydraulics are the way to go. As are most new technologies that make cycling better.
Field service matters everywhere outside walking distance to bike shops and outside business hours, unless you have a support car with you. The performance difference can be made up with not being completely incompetent at riding.
Yeah, but if you're saying that, are you concerned your freehub will go bad? Or your suspension/fork? Or your clip pedals? These are all hard to fix on the field if they go bad, and (arguably) unnecessary. Should I not use them? And no, it cannot, because hydraulics give you much more stopping power and much more modulation. Otherwise you would see motorcycles with cables.
Hydraulic brakes give better performance for the same size rotor, but mechanicals are good enough if you use a bigger rotor and set them up correctly.
For example, I think Avid mechanical disc brakes are perfect, if you set them up correctly. If you run a 200mm rotor on the Avid mechanicals and use a good compressionless cable setup, one-finger, low-effort braking is what you get. Because of the large rotor, you get very good modulation. If not in the mountains you could probably use a smaller rotor with no trouble.
It's simple physics. The mechanicals will generally put less force on the rotor than hydraulics, but the larger rotor offsets that difference. If you were using a 200mm rotor with hydraulic you'd get more stopping power than 200mm with mechanical, but a 200mm rotor gets the caliper far enough from the hub that a mechanical will provide all the stopping force you need.
Hi and welcome to bicycles.SE. We're looking for answers that are factual, ideally referenced when possible, and add something to the existing ones. Stack Exchange isn't a forum, so chatty "I like this" posts like yours are likely to be deleted. If you could edit your answer to specifically address the question and add new information not present in the existing answers you're more likely to get upvotes. As it is your answer is likely to be deleted as "very low quality"
So your answer is "Hydraulics are great, but mechanicals are good enough if you use a big rotor" ?
@Ron In an effort to save your post from being deleted, I edited it to address the question along the lines of Criggie's suggestion, and removed the chat part. Hope you approve; if not you can revert my changes.
"Simple physics" tells me that force in = force out divided by whatever "mechanical advantage" there is.
@det The answers are supposed to directly answer the question, and be relevant, "the bike that always works" is just chatter, and doesn't address the question as written. We could guess Ron means "Mechanical disk brakes are just ready to go" but that may be the opposite of his message. We don't want to have to second-guess every other answer on the site. You can learn more by reading the [tour] which is custom to each SE site.
there is a article take about this https://lightbike.shop/hydraulic-disc-brakes-vs-mechanical-disc-brakes
basically, the hydraulic is always better then Mechanical, but more expensive.
Welcome to the site! Could you give a slightly more detailed summary of the article in your answer? Links break all the time and, without the link, "hydraulic is always better, but more expensive" doesn't contain any real information? We also recommend that new users take a look at the [tour], which gives more information about how the site works.